318 replies to this topic

[Tilley]

After reading on an old clan website from MW:4, I remember just how much focus was placed on the honor system. Back then, there were certain cheats that most people knew about and knew how to spot when used. I'm just curious if honor will play such a role in the upcoming MW:0. If I remember correctly, during a lance battle, legging the opponent was considered cheap and dishonorable. I am by no means suggesting that this rule is followed now, but wondering what online ground rules some of the clans might decide to choose. Often times, legging a smaller mech was the only way to hit the d*mn thing and get it to slow down. Legging is just an example, just wanted to hear everyone's thoughts about honor and it's uses for online play.

[Stormwolf]

Tilley, on 09 January 2012 - 12:38 PM, said:

After reading on an old clan website from MW:4, I remember just how much focus was placed on the honor system. Back then, there were certain cheats that most people knew about and knew how to spot when used. I'm just curious if honor will play such a role in the upcoming MW:0. If I remember correctly, during a lance battle, legging the opponent was considered cheap and dishonorable. I am by no means suggesting that this rule is followed now, but wondering what online ground rules some of the clans might decide to choose. Often times, legging a smaller mech was the only way to hit the d*mn thing and get it to slow down. Legging is just an example, just wanted to hear everyone's thoughts about honor and it's uses for online play.

I recon that you are pretty unfamiliar with how the Clans are portrayed in the canon, so here goes.

Honor will play a part in the game, they mentioned this in a podcast recently.
The Clans would be rather pointless if they didn't have any honor rules, it is the entire basis for Clan combat.

Anyway, most of those supposed honor rules you read about are usually made up by a couple of players, legging is allowed for instance. The actual Clan honor rules are called Zellbrigen. You can read about them here:
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Zellbrigen

Edited by Stormwolf, 09 January 2012 - 12:51 PM.

[Alistair Steiner]

I immediately thought of the Smoke Jaguar server on MWLL. They discourage legging and other tactics that lessen the fun of the battles. You should check it out.

As far as your question, I feel we should do everything in our power to win, though I tended to only leg in the single-player campaign as a way to maximize the chance of salvage. So yes, I'd prefer a sort of "honorable" combat system.

[Vladdaimpaler77]

I've never seen the point of handicapping yourself, if the game permits certain tactics use em.

[CobraFive]

The game should encourage fun gameplay, not community or player self-policing.

edit: So I guess what I mean is, unless the rules are enforced from a gameplay perspective in some manner (IE decreased payouts for violators or something), they aren't likely to be observed by a majority of players.

Edited by cobrafive, 09 January 2012 - 01:01 PM.

[Thorqemada]

If legging is OP it needs to be adjusted by the developers.
I see no honour in destroying more than needed to win, i allways try to maximize salvage as much as possible, maybe bcs. i am a merc at soul.

Edited by Thorqemada, 09 January 2012 - 01:07 PM.

[Brunk Kerensky]

unless both sides agree or a system to penalize the offenders for "breaking the rules" in a match i see no problem with using any means to win.

[Virgil Caine]

Zellbrigen's rules generally get discarded very early on by Clan Players... Most people who select Clans basically say "I get better stuffz!!! wewt" Then they pick a clan with a neato symbol, and behave like Inner Sphere pilots.

The most overlooked rules of Zellbrigen... Everyone knows the single-combat rules, but most people forget these...

1. You cannot move out of weapon range. Which basically means you must always either maintain current range, or close range. If you get inside their AC20's range, you MUST STAY THERE.
2. You cannot intentionally break Line of Sight... which means, no taking cover. No hiding behind hills and stuff like that.
3. If you can fire a weapon, you must fire that weapon. (heat permitting) So you cannot refrain from firing your AC20 at the long end of it's range increment, just to conserve ammo until you close in easy close-in shot. Neither can you refrain from firing your ERPPC's to conserve heat for a closer in alpha-strike with other weapons.

Munchkins love having the best weapons in the game, but almost never use these Rules, using the "Inner Sphere is dishonorable" cop-out.

[Threat Doc]

Vladdaimpaler77, on 09 January 2012 - 12:53 PM, said:

I've never seen the point of handicapping yourself, if the game permits certain tactics use em.

Honor is not about handicapping, it's about having a civilized, relatively fair, non-barbaric means of winning. I've said it before, and I say it again, now... cowards fight dishonorably.

Thorqemada, on 09 January 2012 - 01:06 PM, said:

If legging is OP it needs to be adjusted by the developers.
I see no honour in destroying more than needed to win, i allways try to maximize salvage as much as possible, maybe bcs. i am a merc at soul.

Honor is about taking the most expedient, non-cheating, non-dirty way to win, and being a mercenary is NOT about the highest bidder or taking the most amount of money or salvage; again, that's for barbarians.

You should remember the re-establishment, in the lore and history of the game, of the feudal system in the Inner Sphere, of honorable combat. Almost immediately after the signing of the Ares Conventions, the nobles who'd signed on to fight by that honorable means, almost universally turned their nose at it and went immediately back to the barbaric, tech-destroying, population-culling means of warfare they had used for over a century at that point, and it fell to the MechWarriors, many who were also not keen on the conventions, though many more were, to try and maintain this way. They fell by the wayside, so now you have a universe where technicians can't fix the equipment they have, where engineers are incapable of designing anything new because they no longer know how it works, and where people who managed to avoid the Succession Wars are now coming back to kick our ***** into gear.

I pray that the game disallows the constant use of those sorts of things, that they will follow the lore and fluff about 250+ year-old targeting systems, so that legging and all that twitch-click garbage from MechWarrior 4 and MechAssault fails to make an appearance here. If you can't fight me honorably, even if you win the match, you're a loser (general statement, not really pointing at anyone).

[Stormwolf]

Most people in this thread don't get what the Clans are about and what the appeal to the fans is.

Virgil Caine, on 09 January 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:

Zellbrigen's rules generally get discarded very early on by Clan Players... Most people who select Clans basically say "I get better stuffz!!! wewt" Then they pick a clan with a neato symbol, and behave like Inner Sphere pilots.

The most overlooked rules of Zellbrigen... Everyone knows the single-combat rules, but most people forget these...

1. You cannot move out of weapon range. Which basically means you must always either maintain current range, or close range. If you get inside their AC20's range, you MUST STAY THERE.
2. You cannot intentionally break Line of Sight... which means, no taking cover. No hiding behind hills and stuff like that.
3. If you can fire a weapon, you must fire that weapon. (heat permitting) So you cannot refrain from firing your AC20 at the long end of it's range increment, just to conserve ammo until you close in easy close-in shot. Neither can you refrain from firing your ERPPC's to conserve heat for a closer in alpha-strike with other weapons.

Munchkins love having the best weapons in the game, but almost never use these Rules, using the "Inner Sphere is dishonorable" cop-out.

Not all Clans follow those rules to the letter, there are grades like opportunistic and liberal.
A duel can be rendered void if the rules are abused.

It simply boils down to proving how skilled you are and how many enemies you can defeat. Luckily this will also include Clan vs Clan battles, most of which in the same faction no less.

[KingCobra]

This is a very good question back in MW2 there were the 3025 & 3050 Stock leagues it was a dishonor to leg or arm a opponant it was considered pure skill if you could just hit all but arms and legs.Admins would ride cameras and penalize teams or 1v1 opponants that legged or armed to determane the outcome of a match.The leagues were the ones that kept fair game play and most of the kaos out of MW2.when MW3 came along alot of the lore roleplaying planitary was replaced by solaris type leagues MWA,SL,BZ,ect and arming and legging was just taken for granted as a valid tactic.Sense MW:O will not be supporting outside league play like MWL or NBT,ect they would have to have a internal league system that stated hits on mech points like legs,arms ,ect then reported them to a central database (like the old zone stats)then to the players in the match it could be done internaly but just the software to implement that big of a planitary league battle system is a huge undertaking and statations,admins,ect would have to constantly moniter the stats.then you have to ask are they going to use like (NPROTECT)?for the hackers?that use resedent memeory hacks?which would alter the gameplay?So in truth the only way honor works is by having honest hard working admins watching the games for violations and reporting the stats.

[Tifalia]

It most certainly does, not just among the Clans or in some books or the telly or even movies, but I hold great respect for people who fight by honourable means and that is also how I live and fight.

[Stormwolf]

I'll write a wall of text tomorrow to elaborate on Clan honor a bit more.

[Tilley]

Looking forward to the "wall of text" then I admit to not following the pen and paper much. I only know through playing the games and playing honorably back in the day (still do).

[Threat Doc]

Stormwolf, to comment on something you said, earlier, about the appeal of the Clans to gamers... I do understand it, and it's still folly, unless the players can discipline themselves to actually fall within the written, but very rarely followed -even in the lore- Clan honor system. As well, Clans are NOT the only ones capable of holding honor and, in fact, their brand of honor leaves much to be desired.

[renegade mitchell]

Honor always has a place. I played in various clans and everyone of them required a ToE and fight with skill and honor.
Why I see here a mute is the fact all of you really have no clue how the Devs will set up the servers. Here is my take on how I feel things may be set up.
We know it will be all located on one main server. We log into server and see the screen consisting of 4 maps/planets (ice, desert, urban, and jungle) with details. We click on each and are taken to a list of instance servers, which in turn take each team into a drop. The way I see alot of you taking this, is as one type of server for various matches, deathmatch, team deathmatch, etc... What if the Devs add roleplay, non roleplay, etc... servers? Pretty much makes threads like this mute, quaff?

Edited by Renegade Mitchell, 09 January 2012 - 05:28 PM.

[Kenyon Burguess]

i find the clan rules silly at best. theres no room for honor in a numbers game. take out a leg you get more salvage. take out a mech from an ambush position with zero risk and you dont have to pay repairs. kill an ejected pilot and maybe he cant see which way you left the area with a deathcam or maybe stop his ability to spawn in a new mech. everyone loses in a war. so the only victory anyone can truely achieve is winning with the smallest margin of loss.

[Thorqemada]

Well, it seems i am dishonourable scum then, but if i can shot a leg i will do.
I simply dont understand why i should destroy a mech when i can preserve most of its value.
To my knowledge its much cheaper to replace a leg than warfare electronics or advanced weaponry and god beware i hit the reactor and all goes boom. - no i dont understand the honour of destroying what can be preserved!
The question is, if i am able to aim that good, probalby not that well and if i manage to win sometimes i will mourn the many destroyed values.

And i will never play Clans - personally i had prefered to play earlier in the timeline when Mechs and Technology be scarce and sought after much and preserving as much of the opponents equipment as possible is a necessity instead of having a scenario like EVE that drifts into attrition warfare where industrial output means more than piloting skill, tactic and strategy.

Well, to speak out my question - you Clanners wont force IS-Scums like me to play obeying to your values of Honor?

Edited by Thorqemada, 09 January 2012 - 08:17 PM.

[Cyber Carns]

I have posted the following in a couple of posts, here are the rules of Zellbrigen:

Also it seems that Total Warfare does not list Smoke Jaguar so there is not info in the books regarding their use of Zellbrigen, unless someone has a source on that.

Overview

Zellbrigen is ritualistic form of honor dueling practiced by the Warrior Caste of the Clans.^[1][2]

History

The practice of engaging opponents in single combat, the genesis of what would later become zellbrigen, was first started by Clan Coyote during the Operation Klondike.^[3] Despite the losses incurred by this fighting method, Coyote's Khan Dana Kufahlwould continue to encourage her Clan and others to practice this "honorable" form of warfare. Eventually the practice would be taken up by all of the Clans, to a greater or lesser degree, in part as a way to minimize losses in both lives and resources.^[1][2]This is especially true when opposing commanders agreed to a duel to determine a battle's outcome.

During the Clan Invasion the rules of zellbrigen lapsed, primarily because the Inner Sphere had no concept of Clan cultural norms and, in some cases, exploited them for "underhanded" victories. By the end of the campaign zellbrigen had all but died out in several Clans, while most still reserve it for inter-Clan confrontations or against worthy Inner Sphere warriors.^[1][2]

Rules

The proscriptions of zellbrigen consist of the following rules:[/color]

• Each warrior will issue a challenge to a different enemy. If one side outnumbers the other, then the extra warriors on that side will stand aside until one of their comrades falls in battle. A warrior can challenge more than one unit at a time.^[4]
  
• A warrior has right to refuse challenges from Inner Sphere units, especially if underhanded ploys are suspected.^[4]
  
• A warrior has the right to refuse a challenge from an unit of differing weight class if other unengaged units are available.^[4]
  
• No artillery or other Area-Effect Weapons shall be employed by either side.^[4]
  
• Intentionally moving out of the line of sight of the opponent is prohibited.^[4]
  
• Systems that requires multiple units to operate, like C3 and TAG, are forbidden.^[4]
  
• Moving out of weapon range is prohibited.^[4]
  
• Failure to fire a weapon when possible is prohibited.^[4]

A warrior is also expected to not retreat from inferior foes, or to engage his opponent in melee combat, though these are not part of the formal rules of zellbrigen.^[4] Also, though it plays a central role in Clans' combat challenges, the ritual of batchallremains a separate tradition.



Interpretation

How zellbrigen is interpreted depends not only on the individual, but their parent Clan as a whole. At one end of the spectrum, the rules are strictly followed, the only exception being when fighting bandits, pirates or the most hated of enemies. At the opposite end, zellbrigen is figuratively "thrown out the airlock" and used only against other Clan warriors, and even then only when there is an advantage over them. In between are varying levels of adherence; for example, zellbrigen is followed unless circumstances dictated otherwise, such as being outnumbered or thinking one could get away with breaking it.^[4]

Prior to the Clan Invasion, Clan Blood Spirit, Clan Coyote, Clan Ghost Bear, Clan Goliath Scorpion, Clan Jade Falcon, Clan Star Adder and Clan Steel Viper adhered strictly to the tenants of zellbrigen. Meanwhile Clan Cloud Cobra, Clan Hell's Horses, Clan Ice Hellion, Clan Nova Cat and Clan Snow Raven were more opportunistic in their interpretation. Only Clan Diamond Shark and Clan Wolf used a liberal interpretation of zellbrigen in their conflicts with the other Clans.^[4]

After their defeat at the Battle of Tukayyid, many of the Clans began to rethink their use of these honor rules, and a number of political, military and cultural changes took place. The Blood Spirits, Jade Falcons and Star Adders became more opportunistic, while the Ghost Bears became more liberal, in the use of zellbrigen. The schism within Clan Wolf resulted in its new Crusader-minded leadership to become slightly more conservative, while Clan Wolf-in-Exile maintain a flexible definition of zellbrigen.^[4]

Clan Fire Mandrill, by their fractious nature, defy any sort of labeling, with each Kindraa having their own individual understandings of zellbrigen.^[4]

References

• ↑ ^{1.0 1.1 1.2} Field Manual: Warden Clans, p.17
  
• ↑ ^{2.0 2.1 2.2} Field Manual:Crusader Clans, p.15
  
• ↑ Field Manual: Warden Clans, p. 40
  
• ↑ ^{4.00 4.01 4.02 4.03 4.04 4.05 4.06 4.07 4.08 4.09 4.10 4.11 4.12} Total Warfare, p. 275

Bibliography

• Field Manual: Crusader Clans
  
• Field Manual: Warden Clans
  
• Total Warfare

Edited by Cyber Carns, 09 January 2012 - 08:19 PM.

[Phelan Kerensky]

Please do keep in mind that Clanners "should" adhere to the rules laid down by Zellbrigen but many clans and even individual portions of clans have a slightly different(more liberal or conservative)way of following Zellbrigen. I know there will be those clanners out there just for the better tech, mechs, etc. I am not and will not be one of them. I plan on adhering to Zellbrigen in this game just as I have done in every other. Being a true Warden Wolf, however, I will also use Zellbrigen in the sort of flexibility the Warden Wolves are known for... Also, I believe the devs should implement a system in which clan players can be penalized if they do not adhere to the honor based rules. This sort of setup will also put a quick end to this "mass exodus" to the clans the IS players fear so much. Keep in mind as well, that like me, there are other Clan MechWarriors who would look down on their Clan brethren should they fight like IS Surats. Hopefully the Honor Bound Clanners will be able to put enough pressure on them along with whatever system the devs use to help Clan players adhere to Zellbrigen. This should also make the IS feel much better and like the game much more than they would have otherwise...

Edited by Phelan Kerensky, 09 January 2012 - 09:53 PM.